Buckdog

The poor Liberals. Willing to sell out their own constituents to try and make the NDP look bad. Know what might protect women more then a gun registry? Pay equity, wait the Liberals killed that by sitting out a budget vote. Know what might protect women around the world? Child care plans which include a womens right to chose wait Liberals broke with Iggy on that one and killed that with the Cons.

The Liberals don't care about women we already know that. They don't care about the gun registry we already know that. All Iggy is doing is giving Harper his majority. One vote at a time.

And you have to laugh at how they go about it. Weeks of normal blogging suddenly end and all of a sudden there is a coordinated flurry of anti-Layton blog posts. They are not only lame in their methods, they are obvious!

Liberal / Tory .. same old story! Gawd I hate Right wingers!!

"Like it or not, it is the will of the people that no one party is being given the blessing to form a majority government. Harper will not win a majority in the next campaign and neither will the Liberals."

While true, this obfuscates the true nature of our undemocratic electoral system. A "majority" government is a majority of ridings, not voters. "50% +1" only applies to ridings, not voters. The truth is that our electoral system rarely if ever allow the "will of the people" to be realized because a minority of voters can elect a majority of ridings.

Which is how Liberals held majority government electon after election...

If I understand this correctly, if Harper brought forth a gov't bill to eliminate the Long Gun registry, the NDP would whip their members to oppose it.

However since it is a private members bill the tradition is that the parties, I assume all parties do not whip their members to vote along the party's platform or beliefs etc.

Unfortunately for the democratic parties in parliament, the Conservatives are whipping the vote as this has been a main stay of their platform, since the Reform days.

The Liberals who have often used the private members bill line in the past to get around sticky issues and have been grilled over it, have decided to Whip.

Possibly realizing that this government is abusing the whole democratic process by bringing government policy in this way.

Seems to me like there is less higher ground for the NDP by not whipping.

PS: the LPC has not directed me to type this :)

Willy .. I have always assumed that your blog posts are uninfluenced by any party. I am convinced that if Harper brought forth a gov't bill to eliminate the Long Gun registry, the NDP would whip their members to oppose it. I agree with you totally that Harper is playing games with democracy.

The vote is weeks away and yet, the Libs are trying to make this an anti-NDP issue when the problem is a much larger issue.

The Liberals originally crafted the Bill to criminalize anyone who didn't immediately register. A post today reports on Charlie Angus, a New Democrat jMP from Northern Ontario, who is no fan of the gun registry. He tells the story of a costitiuent, an 84-year-old widow who wanted to register her dead husband’s firearm and was told she would first have to get a licence, after taking a course in how to use it, even though she never planned to fire the weapon.

Stop for one moment and look at how the Libs are dealing with the aftermath of their poorly thought out legislation. They are trying to exonerate themselves for poorly thought out legislation and paint the NDP as somehow being the bad guys here.

Sleazy. Indeed

When did Layton ever pass up an opportunity to smear the Libs? Jacko is vulnerable and so they're understandably going after him. Turnaround isn't fair play when it comes to the NDP? Stop whining.

Politics is all about the give and take ... back and forth competition that is norm in that business. My post and my argument concerns the coordinated way that Lib bloggers go on the attack .. I have every right to call them on it. Just a few minutes ago, the Globe & Mail published a story where Iggy says he is not afraid of taking the nation to the polls this fall. Fair ball. All I am talking about is the thinly veiled tactics I am witnessing in the larger Liberal strategy. Is that whinning? I guess to a Lib it is.
Cheers!

I have my won story. The first thing he ever bought was a gun. He put on lay away and it took him 20 weeks to pay it off. He never had any money. His Father died when he was very young serving our country.

He no longer hunts he is in a wheel chair, the gun has always had a lock and Dad proudly displayed it with a Lock on it. He hasn't had bullets for the thing for 15 years now. He sold it though because he was tired of trying to register it. He lives on a Rural route and of the many times he tried to register it, they kept telling him his address didn't exist.

Still talks about that gun though. Not as tool but as something they meant something to him. To bad he will never get to share it with his grand children. What a mess. Liberals don't care about those people though. They want to keep that registry and maybe someday sometime fix it in the future.

I say screw that. Dad brought home food when I was small with that gun, he was always responsible. Never kept one bullet in the house and it meant something. Enough of this BS. Liberal Bloggers have surly made up my mind for the next election and have probably lost my families vote forever.

Honestly! The registry might help the symptoms of violent crime, but it sure don't treat the causes!
There were honest methods the Liberals could've tried in approaching the NDP to work out a coordinated push-back against the Conservatives desire to bring down the registry.
The recent attacks, however.... It ain't even about the registry. It's simply a chance for die-hard Liberals to put in a few boots into Dippers. Damn 'em! And the registry, too! They wanna a scrum over this!?

I see this as a huge tactical mistake on Iggy's part. Why attack the underdog? Anyone who has ever been to a gradeschool playground knows that this is the tactic of a coward. A bully.

I was raised in a sustanence hunting, fishing, farming family. Dad registered his weapons, as did most people like him. I don't think the Bacon Brother's gang (Vancouver) ever registered their weapons. I'm pretty confident the police assumed they were armed anyways. In fact, police are trained to assume everyone is armed.

I agree with Layton allowing a free vote. They should only be able to whip the vote on matters of confidence.

"Dad brought home food when I was small with that gun, he was always responsible. Never kept one bullet in the house and it meant something. Enough of this BS. Liberal Bloggers have surly made up my mind for the next election and have probably lost my families vote forever."

Wow, Robert. How heartwarming and entirely in line with the Conservative spin story.

You know, the public has a right to know if you have a weapon in your house. And by public, I mean the public service and it's servants: the RCMP, firefighters, and municipal police.

If I was a cop and I was coming onto the scene of a rural domestic disturbance, I'd probably check to see if the home had a gun registered to it. I'm not saying that people with guns shoot cops or their spouses or family members, but crimes of passion involve exactly that - passion. And I'd want to be prepared for what's inside. The homeowners could have unregistered guns, and that's something that cops can only imagine before responding to a call. Bottom line: this is about public safety.

If Jack doesn't want to whip his caucus because this is a private member's bill, then he needs to do his homework on ReformaTory ideological history. Surely the CPC anticipated NDP rural support and made it a private member's bill. Can't Dipper's see that their party is playing into Conservative hands? The same tactic that was used to divide Liberal support in the past (and probably more to come in the future) and push forward neo-con legislation?

You're all smart guys and I'm stunned that you're getting hung up on a technicality. Personally, I've gone back and forth on the issue. I currently live with a room mate who keeps a registered long gun in the house and he fully supports his God given right to bear arms without the government sticking it's damn nose in his business.

But I want the cops to know that he has a gun in the house because my safety is potentially at stake. If that isn't plain old common sense, then I don't know what is.

Dylan, didn't the Liberals vote with the Cons on the Omnibus bill,
Colombian Free Trade, the HST...?

A free vote by the NDP is appropriate, because isn't it traditional to allow a free vote on Private Members Bills and matters that are not an issue of Confidence?

I don't think the gun registry has prevented crime. Criminals don't register their weapons, and like I said before, police are trained to assume everyone is armed.

Good point Kim! And just to refresh my friend Dylan's memory a tad, the Libberal Caucus has voted with the Harper Conservatives over 100 times since Harper came to power in 2006.

Yup when Liberals say they want to take on Harper, they always lead off by attacking the New Dems. They get the crap beat out of them and then go back to supporting Harper once again.

Damn. I didn't get the memo.

Wow! Seems like everyone else did!! Liberal Inc must think your are a Green or something!?

Hey, I'm not disputing that the registry does not PREVENT crime. It is a tool that aids the public servants, like the police and RCMP who support the registry, make informed decisions when responding to calls. Likewise, a mandatory long-form census doesn't SOLVE social problems. It aids in making good decision making. So by using that argument, Kim & Co., you're not really adding to the debate on the merits of the gun registry but rather re-stating ideological talking points.

And yeah, the Libs have propped up the government hundreds of times over the last four years. But, as I recall, when Dion and/or Iggy have dropped the gauntlet and decided to vote against the government on matters of confidence and issues of national concern that would otherwise trigger an election - the NDP always finds a way to keep Harper a float. Pointing to the Liberals as the "worse" opposition party between the two that consistently posture to polling in this country, is nothing to be proud of and doesn't build up the credibly of Layton's leadership.

The "private member's bill" that Hoeppner has put forward is a rouse. An intentional ploy to sway newly minted Northern Ontario and rural NDP members of parliament into voting with the government. Do NDP supporters want to see those seats lost in the next election? Why don't you come right out and say it? No! Why isn't that a good enough reason to support it?

It's clearly the obvious reason and politically, it's the best reason. Instead, you'll all go to bat for bad policy that undermines the ability for municipal police that have accessed over 11,000 times EVERY DAY in the last year to make informed, public safety decisions.

Hi Dylan. Bottom line for me on the 'issue' is simply this. Why couldn't the Libs have entered into dialogue with the New Dems over ways to try and find compromise ... in some ways it may have shown Canadians how the Lib and New Dem Caucuses can work towards using Parliament for the will of the majority of Canadians (you know the majority who did NOT vote for Harper).

But here's what has happened. Iggy and his brain trust became spooked by Harper's invocation of 'coalition' recently. Harper uses it like a bad word. The Liberals started to tremble and got scared.

So .. progressive forces in Canada's parliament could have worked together on the Registry issue and by the date for the vote - Sept 22nd, shown Canadians that coalition can actually work and be good for Canada.

The Liberals decided otherwise. The decided to attack Mr. Layton, and New Democrats.

Not very smart.

In grade nine, my classmates were held hostage at gunpoint for several hours. In grade ten, the guy with the locker next to me died in circumstances I won't even begin to describe, and in grade 11 someone shot up the highshool gym change room. Every one of these acts involved a long gun.

I live in Jack Layton's riding. I am a partisan Liberal, and yes I blogged about Heather Mallick's article as soon as I read it. I needed no encouragement from any party or partisan aparatus to speak my mind on it. I doubt many vitims or witnesses to such acts need any further motivation.

Charlie Angus thinks an 84 year old woman shouldn't have to take a test to own a firearm. I feel differently. Should she be exempt from registering his car or getting a licence to drive the damned thing? No.

Jack Layton thinks that private members bills, which constitute a legislative act, are of no consequence. That's a cop-out of the worst kind.

Layton's own latest 'proposal' is to have the cost of the registry (a pittance) borne by taxpayers, with no costs borne by gun owners. It's ridiculous.

Jack Layton is a coward. He has never stood for anything but his own opportunism, and he's now willing to do to the gun registry what he did to child care. Only this is worse.

He and the rest of his hypocritical and incapable caucus will pay a hefty price for this.

Progressive Canadians who support sensible firearm regulation know that there is only one party able and willing to pay the political price necessary to have such policy goals enshrined in legislation. That party is not Jack Layton's NDP. It never has been.

"I feel differently. Should she be exempt from registering his car or getting a licence to drive the damned thing? No."
One of the flaws in the Liberal legislation is this. I can park my car, not drive it and not register it year to year and that is not a criminal offense. Not so with a rifle it must be renewed every year with the cash OR you are guilty of a criminal offense. Bad argument.

Harper is playing political games with this issue.

Ignatieff is playing political games with this issue too.

This matter can be dealt with to the satisfaction of all. It doesn't have to be disputed as it is now. Dialogue - rational discussion - public awareness are the tools all sides should be using.

But oh no .. Liberals and Conservatives have decided to let emotion rule the day and there is no room for rational, mature, responsible problem solving.

I don't buy your emotional inflexibility. And don't tell me the last 3 days of relentless Liberal attacks on New Democrats is not a calculated, well thought out strategic exercise.

Have a nice day.

"Hi Dylan. Bottom line for me on the 'issue' is simply this. Why couldn't the Libs have entered into dialogue with the New Dems over ways to try and find compromise ... in some ways it may have shown Canadians how the Lib and New Dem Caucuses can work towards using Parliament for the will of the majority of Canadians (you know the majority who did NOT vote for Harper.)"

Isn't this what was going on when Ignatieff proposed reforms to the long-gun registry back in April that the New Democrats rejected, at the time, and are now proposing as their "own" solution?

Liberal reform in April included:
making it easier for firearms owners to register their long guns by streamlining the paperwork; removing renewal fees; and making it a ticketing offence, rather than a criminal one, for first-timers who fail to participate.

NDP reforms launched last week:

Penalties for non-registration should start as non-criminal fines; aboriginal treaty rights must be protected; gun-owners’ privacy needs protection; there should never be a charge for long-gun registration.

The only differences between the two plans are recognizing treaty rights and gun owners' privacy - the former of which are easily solved by streamlining the process for registration with special acknowledgment of Aboriginal peoples. The latter, well, that's a policing issue. There's no point to a registry that cannot be accessed by the authorities that are doing their job.

So here we are. You asked the Liberals to enter into dialogue with the NDP on this issue. It was pretty clear what was going on when a number of Liberals and Dippers voted to kill the registry last year. So, Ignatieff went to work trying to get his house in order and proposed these reforms with his MPs in mind. Jack could have followed suit, if he wanted to, and come to the Ignatieff and said, "I am concerned about my rural MPs too, and we can work together on your reforms if we add special recognition of Aboriginal rights and issues of privacy."

Instead, Jack said that he would "wait and see" and propose their own reforms, albeit too little too late.

Is the onus completely on the Liberals to make sure the NDP is happy with reforms to the gun registry? Could the leadership of the NDP, if they were truly concerned with keeping the registry, have talked with the Liberals on their April reforms in a concerted effort to kill this private member's bill?

In December of 2006, NDP MP Judy Wasylycia-Leis had no problem feeding the RCMP a phony tip on Liberal Ralph Goodale to put the final nail in Paul Martin's coffin. That same election, Jack had no problem going on TV telling Canadians to give the Liberals "the boot" for Christmas.

This is politics, and cooperation is a two way street. If the NDP saw something they liked in the Liberal reforms nearly five months ago, they should have said something. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But what we have are two sets of reforms - both of which are too little too late; which will come to fruition only if one of these two parties makes the government next election (and I think we all know who has a better shot at that).

These two parties can work together and the SHOULD work together. But you know what? Jack missed the boat. Face it. And I think on this issue, Mark has a point.

He's not going to whip his caucus. Fine. The registry will die. And if the NDP is truly concerned with the safety of police and the registry as a decision making tool - not a crime prevention tool - then they'll play ball if Igantieff becomes PM and puts the right legislation forward to reinstate the registry with new reforms.

Gawd Dylan, you never miss a chance to slam the NDP. I've heard you sing praises for the PC's the Greens and now the Libs .. what gives??

As for the difference between Lib and New Dem amendments to the Registry, I happen to believe that the Treaty Rights issue is HUGE as is PRIVACY.

But what do I know .. I am only a contemptible New Democrat who got here through family ties to 'Social Gospel' during the Depression ... I am used to being vilifed by Liberals AND GREENS as an 'evil socialist .. leftist '... etc.

Leftdog, this isn't personal. I am proud of the New Democrats prairie social gospel roots. That doesn't make you an "evil" socialist or leftist in my eyes. As one example, during the 2008 Coalition prorogation, I called the closest opposition MP to me and told her that she can feel free to speak for me in parliament should the possibility of taking down the government become a reality. That member was Linda Duncan of Edmonton-Strathcona.

But as for taking shots at the NDP, it's easy to do when the Dipper contingency of the progressive blogosphere always returns any debate with the "Liberals have propped up the Conservative government hundreds of times" when their very party has done the same thing when the LPC has pulled their plug of support. Clearly, both the LPC and NDP have played into Harper's hand during this last four years; it's time to stop keeping count seeing as how it will take BOTH parties to bring Harper down. To address the issue of the day, the long-gun registry is just one more issue in this long line of poor Opposition representation. It should not have come this far in the first place and that would have happened with a concerted effort from both the LPC and NDP.