Buckdog

I fail to see the reasoning behind your slant of this here...what are the possible benefits to harper not acting in this way? Large corporations making more profits on the backs of both chinese peasants and poor canadians? Even more efficient genocide in tibet? More walmart? I don't get it.

Well musicgod ... let me draw you a picture. Harper and his Conservatives (which includes both old style Tories and Reform types) believe that ALL ills of the world can be fixed by free market 'unfettered' commerce and trade. That is what they believe. They go to great lengths to vilify and demonize any other type of economic system.

Yet, when a nation such as China, with a different economic system is actually successful, the Canadian free-marketers go into panic mode and feel they have not choice but to condemn, ignore or bad mouth them.

Meanwhile in Canada, those who actually conduct 'business' have nothing but criticism for the ideological ilk like Harper and company.

Harper will never admit that he is wrong, but his current actions (by going to China - hat in hand) prove how wrong he was and how stupid he was to have bought into Preston Manning's 'free market' ideology.

Now to you ... you are talking 'left' but are actually trying to defend Harper? What's that all about????

Hmmmm.... I figger musicgod is simply looking at China for what they are: the world's worst human rights abusers. Personally, I'd rather not do business with a regime that carries out more death penalties per capita than any other. There is well document proof of slave (prison) labour making a big contribution to China's economic success.

I'm no free marketer by a longshot, but that doesn't excuse the totalitarian oppression of the Chinese regime. I don't give a rat's ass what their economic system is or how much we "need" their business. Their human rights record makes them an unpalatable business associate. They ain't such angels when it comes to environmental issues, neither.

JB

Actually Jim Bobby you are wrong on your execution stats ... China is 14th and the USA is 20th.

Since we are on the topic of human rights in China, I agree that there is much the Chinese need to do. However, there are a few things that our largest trading partner and friend south of the border (the Americans) could be working on as well . You know that the USA Has Highest Incarceration Rate in the World !
Incarcerations per 100,000 population (sample):

1014____Texas (in 1999) (governor George W. Bush)
1013____Louisiana (2001(
715_____United States of America (2001)
584_____Russian Federation
554_____Belarus
487_____Cuba
416_____Ukraine
402_____South Africa
388_____Singapore
267_____Namibia
253_____Tunisia
248_____Taiwan
210_____Poland
204_____Chile
194_____Iran
189_____Hong Kong (China)
178_____Czech Republic
177_____Greenland (Denmark)
176_____Jamaica
174_____Israel
173_____Libya
169_____Brazil
169_____Mexico
161_____New Zealand
158_____El Salvador
146_____Lebanon
142_____United Kingdom: England & Wales
129_____Portugal
126_____Colombia
125_____Republic of (South) Korea
121_____Egypt
119_____China
116_____Canada

-In the USA, Blacks and Hispanics make up 62 percent of the incarcerated population, though comprising only 25 percent of the national population;

-Between ten and fifteen percent of black men are incarcerated in twelve states (Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Texas, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming);

-Black women are incarcerated at rates between ten and thirty-five times greater than the rates of white women in fifteen states (Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Rhode Island, Texas, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming); and

-Hispanic youth are incarcerated at rates seven to seventeen times greater than those of whites in Connecticut, Hawaii, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire, while the incarceration rate for black youth is between twelve and twenty-five times greater than those of whites in Connecticut, Delaware, Iowa, Massachusetts, Montana, and New Jersey.

Before you lecture me on China ... maybe reconsider......

No argument that there are significant human rights issues in teh US. Sorry, but that doesn't excuse China. Have a good look at AMnesty's 2008 report on China.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/annualreport.php?id=ar&yr=2008&c=CHN

Interestingly, Amnesty calls China execution stats into question and says we really have no way of knowing the real figure -- but that they are suspected to be much higher than officially stated.

FWIW, Harper's new crime bill (with LPC support) is going to make Canada more like the US wrt incarceration rates. I reckon a US company'll get the contract to build and run Cdn prisons.

JB

And by the way, with Canada's record on aboriginal children living in utter poverty, Harper and Canadians in general have a LOT of nerve lecturing ANYONE on human rights

Amnesty has a file on Canada, too.

Which as I mentioned, makes me wonder what right we have to lecture others???

As human beings we not only have a right but a responsibility to do what we can to alleviate all types of suffering, regardless of where it is happening. Do we cut off humanitarian aid to Africa because of conditions of Cdn First Nations? No, we're not perfect but unless human rights activists and campaigners point fingers and "lecture", we are at the total mercy of that all important force that you mentioned in your post title: commerce.

A so called 'unfettered free-market' economy (as Harper lusts for) and a 'planned' economy as China has can still both conduct 'commerce' with each other.

Commerce in and of itself is merely the economic interaction of different parties. In terms of global commerce, every partner needs to at least understand where their counterpart is coming from.

In Canada we don't see 'employment' as a human right ... you are completely on your own. Other nations shake their head and can't imagine the levels of unemployment we accept as normal.

Bottom line is that if the entire world looks for reasons to not conduct commerce and to lecture each other, no one is going to benefit.

That is the basic complaint that I have of Harper's approach. He studied free-market concepts and right wing politics at the University of Calgary. He and others in his circle have nothing but hatred, disgust and venom for any economic system other than their blessed 'free-market' system. His previously inflexible ideological economic beliefs are blind to the ability of any other system to operate.

Sarah Palin sounded a similar sentiment the other day when she said that Canadians should do away with our public health system and let the 'free market' make a profit!

She is not prepared to accept the fact that any other system but hers can deliver health care.

China is doing quite well without free market capitalism and Harper hates them for it. That's why he took so long to engage the Chinese.

Now he's getting heat from the very people who got him elected because he is standing in the way of commerce with that large nation.

I've been whinning about how unprepared Harper was to govern since he got elected. I was correct.