Buckdog

You know what the major problem is? This whole left right crazy polorization is killing the U.S. I will be making huge assumptions here and someone please correct me, but I have seen people on the "left" are more central than people on the "right". As someone who is more left leaning, I see myself as someone who is open to honest debate. I want to be convinced, by adult discussions as to why one plan is better than the other. I crave to see all the nuances of issues and could swayed. When Mulroney brought up the GST I was initially not a fan, nor with free trade. But I was convinced that in the long run this may have done more good for our country than bad. Maybe that is the problem. We are mature and we enjoy seeing both sides, whereas the "right" are dogmatic and will not listen to any plausible debate. They will twist and turn and even refuse elements of a debate, that they were initially all on board for, simply because it was introduced into the debate from the other side. They break down the left by refusal after refusal until it is taken to the brink. They will wait until King Solomon takes a sword and actually cuts into the baby, without making a sound, just to see level headed people pull the sword back.

Bush is the person most responsible, by far, but Obama is NOT innocent. If Obama had not waited till the last minute to raise taxes and had done it when the democrats control both congress and the senate, this would not be happening. Instead he waits till the zombie army aka the tea party takes over. He had his miment to shine and he lisr ut. Denis should have been president and Obama vice president. Denis has the policies and talent and Obama has the charm.

Vahan--you mean this whole medium-right hard-right crazy polarization? There is no noticeable electoral left in the US.

Purple, I suppose you are right. The left is the invisible masses going to work all day, paying the bills and taxes. The right buys protesters to rally against government, until they are in power when they massively enlarge government. I don't understand how voters don't see the irony of the right. They talk about family values, they get caught sleeping around, they preach abstinence, their children get pregnant, they are terribly homophobes and get caught in bathroom stalls. The best was during the healthcare debate, they kept yelling about how they didn't want "big socialist government" controlling their health needs. The right paid for a bunch of underemployed and elderly to head off to Washington to protest the bill. Of course these are all big fat white people in ill health. They had the nerve to complain that the subway/bus system in Washington was inadequate to get them to the protest site and that when they were fainting and getting ill no one was around to help them immediately. Free market baby, free market. The state politicians are hilarious too, they hate the big bailout of the economy then they go out and take the hard hat, shovel in ground pictures while taking credit for growing the local economy.

I got no disagreement with you there. Personally, I've tended to gradually get harder and more overtly left as I get older, partly just because my views have gradually shifted, partly because of what you describe--the tendency on the right to just grab more rhetorical room the more you hand them, to head further right if they can get you to concede anything.
I said enough years ago. If I'm arguing with a right winger I pick apart their frames. I question their assumptions starting from the bedrock, like the basic nature of so-called "free" markets. After all, a market is a social construct. It isn't a magical thing of nature as they imagine, it needs to be constructed by a society of humans, and needs social rules and enforcement of them to exist. It has no special privilege over any other kind of social construct as a way to organize our lives.
Get them arguing over that kind of thing and they never get a chance to talk about the merits of dumping social programs. They're too busy defending their whole religion.